+++++++++++++++
The is not the place to accuse people.
post edit by yamamot0
+++++++++++++++

I was challenged by caballo [deleted by admin]

He used the OOL rule because i didnt email to ask him if i should kill off his 1 US dd first instead of his entire UK fleet to include a battleship. Becuase his fleet was dead anyway i used common sense.

Despite the obvious he claimed that i broke the rule and he would not continue to play. I offered to let him do the battle over again with his OOL which [deleted by admin] but he declined and has not contacted me back in a week in a half.

From what I heard from Gen_Zhukov I absolutely agree with him and if the admin rules on this issue i hope they decide in his favour, especially because he even offered to redo the battle. However, if you follow the letter of the law Caballo is probably right. I think this raises an issue which comes down to that I think the OOL rules are not very well written.

I think a line/paragraph should be added that takes out the need to ask for OOL if you attack against a multinational force and it is a sure victory and/or decide to fight till the end anyway. Actually this is an advantage for the defender in some cases!
Connected to the above I think that also no OOL is required when the defender has to chose between the same types of ships with different nationalities, which can be edited in the following turn if the attacker made the 'wrong' choice (for example editing a usa dd into a uk dd). If a defensive sub is present OOL's should always be asked.

Also, it says in the rules that an OOL should be asked BEFORE the first round of dice is rolled. I disagree with this rule. Unless a defensive sub is present I think the OOL should be asked AFTER the attacker has rolled their first round of dice so the defender knows how many hits have been inflicted.

I hope that I'm clear and let me know what you think

Bas

very good suggestions Bas... but at the very least a line that reads this rule is not an excuse to quit if you dont like the battle because the wrong piece was removed and no OOL is requested feel free to contact the opponent and have the battle redone with the OOL of your choice. As long as the OOL is different then the already performed battle.

Hey Bas,

Just like a real game, the defender should always get to choose whatever they want to lose. With that in mind I don't think we should change the OOL rules regarding the four types of battles listed.

I think you're reading this text too literally: "You MUST ask the defender for an OOL prior to rolling any dice,but after combat movement is completed, if it is a situation that calls for an OOL."

The point isnt really to restrict people from getting to choose after first dice are rolled, the point was just to get people to ask for OOL emails. I have played numerous games where people have responded with different casualty selections for different battle results, and I have played games where the single battle went back and forth a number of times. We can slightly modify the wording to better reflect these options.

Sorry to repeat myself, but if anyone is concerned about advantage or anything, the most obvious thing is to always just email the game back and forth at each stage of battle, just like you would playing live. If someone gets an advantage this way, then that's just how it goes.

@Zhu (and Caballo),

the ladder are very clear on your problem.
Please use them, No reason so post here in the forum:

1) try to agree how to continue the game
- if you dont agree, (seems that you dont)
2) Caballo have to contact an admin, and complain over Zhus move - the admin will decided how the game continues (Zhu has made his move, Caballo dont accept his move)
3) if Caballo dont contact an admin or make his next move, Zhu sends a slow play warning
- and then another. If Caballo dont answer zhu can report the games won. (Zhu has made his move, Caballo dont complaint over his move, Caballo has to move)

Note:

I always rolls first, saves the game. Send the saved game with the dice and ask for OOL

That makes it easier for the defender, because he dont have to calculate for other dices.

The defender has to choose casualty after the rolling anyway.

sorry about that Yama. My intention was to warn people of the fact.

The last letter he wrote to me was to say..."the rule is very important
so... yu go on, i dont want play" and that was more than a week and a half ago. At which time he would write more than once a day.

I will take your advise and report it as a slow play.

Also if you need me to i can send the game to any of the admin to help them in determining what should be done.

I dont speack well english, excuse me
So.... the problem is not the game, the problem is not the OOL. I copy here the mail Zu sended me 8 decembre, h 15, 40
"... the truth is your making an excuse because you know you have this game lost. I will accept a surrender. but if you do not agree to it as a victory on my part i will post the file on forums and let the mods make a decision as well as allow other players to see that you make excuses when you lose and then quit."
I have sended copy of this mail to op some houres ago.
This subject has threatened to cause me slander and label and damage my reputation about "all other players". I thinck this mail is very heavy.
What it has happened? I invoked only the respect of rules, because in that attak of Zu, 8 december, i had not only defence multinational forces but also a carrier. I had in SZ7 2 destroyer Uk, 1 batleship Uk, 1 carrier Uk, 1 destroyer Us in total 8+4+4=16 defence points.... He attaked me with 6 fighter=18 points. Exit totally uncertain, i thinck.
But he didnt ask me Ool. He mede all attaks and after sended me the turn completely made. With ncm and new purchases. Absurd! When i have contested this and invoked the respect of rules, i have had no excuse from Zu. Never. No excuse for the violation of rules. He has sended me this mail...unworthy
In prevoius occasions he sended me - always by mail - the accusation to cheat with dice roll. To cheat! Yeah. To cheat. Also this i told 12 houres ago to Bung: My dice rolls can be controlled on http://tdice.appspot.com/list, game UUID n 5b041251-55ea406c-8b74-fa35a387ec39. And of course on MARTI. But Zu 2.3 times has accused me to cheat! Intolerable. Too heavy.
For all these motives i asked 12 hour ago to Bung to delete this game for ""irremediable discrepancy". I hope it be possible. But for all these motives i warn Zu to send me further mails , however his mails shall be recovered automaticly in spam folder or trah directely.

Many greetings for you

Probably better to just contact Yama for problems like this.

What happened is a common mistake and if General_Zhukov is prepared to completely redo the turn to meet Cabollo's concerns then that seems pretty reasonable. Of course, if Caballo feels Gen_Zhukov was rude and doesn't want to play with him any more that's his prerogative--no need to slander him publicly on that account. Just take your win, be happy, and if you feel its warranted, give him a negative rating on the ladder. There aren't many negative ratings on the ladder so people will notice if someone has one.

I'm also curious about the case of attacking a multi-national fleet where the OOL is more or less obvious. Suppose you attack 2 ac 4 fig + transports (lets say 1 ac is usa, rest of the units are uk, and its lowluck dice) with 4 fig 2 bmb and you get the 2--so you got 4 hits. Let's say there are no Japanese fighters for a follow-up, so.....if you were to keep an ac you'd be taking a major risk (not to mention that logically you'd lose the ac during the next round anyway, so ultimately you are just denying yourself the possibility of getting 2 hits on the 2nd roll). It hardly seems necessary to ask for OOL in this circumstance, but according to the rule you would still have to email for it?

Without seeing the details, Gen_Zhukov/Cabollo's OOL sounded much more obvious, so I can sympathize with him "using common sense" if there is only 1 OOL possibility that stands up to logical scrutiny.

I also agree with Bas' point that the time to ask for OOL is after the first roll. It's needlessly complicated to ask for OOL before the battle because OOL is always going to be relative to the dice rolled.

it probably is, but that wouldn't have resulted in a good 'oldfashioned' discussion on the forum! (btw, you're both making some other serious accusations to each other which indeed shouldn't be discussed here... this on the other hand is quite a useful public discussion)

@zhukov(4), i agree completely, precisely my point - and i think this is even to the advantage of the defender, either the attacker kills the defending troops in the order of strength and fights the battle to the end which will always result in the best possible outcome for the defender, or the attacker stops before the end and if the defender doesn't agree with the causalities selected he can protest and edit as he desires (if subs are part of the battle this is a bit more complicated and ool's are almost always necessary) - therefore i believe that not asking for the OOL in these battles if it is an advantage for anyone is so for the defender and not the attacker
to follow up on your example, i agree indeed, but if the attacker stops with let's say one defending ship still on the board (a bb), he/she has the right to say that he would've wanted to keep the carrier instead of the bb (or of course a ship of a different nationality) - all this can be solved by editing

@bung, i agree, but i think this discussion makes it clear that it's not really clear when it is necessary to ask for a OOL and you can very well read the rules as literally as caballo does even though they're not meant that way

bas

I am sorry for the misunderstanding Caballo. I never accused you of cheating.

We had problems early on with the dice reporting on PBEM by MARTI. I believe it was because you were not set up. I wrote to you to tell you early in the game that i would not accept any moves that were not reported by MARTI because it could easily be rerolled to your favor. And since it was a dice game i did not want to take any chances. This is not the same as saying you did cheat, rather to point out that it could be done and i did not want to travel that route. For both your benifit as well as mine. Again for this misunderstanding i am sorry for.

Also perhaps you dont realize that the jap fighters would have finished the job even if by some miracle the dd had survived. Also you had lost cauc and would not be able to retake it.

I offered to do the battle over with your OOL when you first brought up that i did not send you a OOL. To this you replied that ..."the rule is very important
so... yu go on, i dont want play" that is when i replied to you a warning you that either you continued, surrender or I would warn others. I am sorry that it has come to this and would have liked to have worked things out with you. But with your quick statement that you were done playing i made such a statement and gave you a week and a half to respond before warning others.

I am willing to submit our game for review so that the mods can tell that your fleet was dead regardless of OOL and that i gave you the best chance to win. Though this is not to say that next time i will not email an opponent with the most frivolous OOL's regardless of the common sense one can use so that something like this can not happen again.